Unlock Your Child’s Learning Potential with the 8 Types of Intelligence

John Fuller: Welcome to Focus on the Family’s weekend broadcast. We hope the following program will challenge you and encourage you in your faith journey. So we don’t need to say things like, "How did the other kids do?" and we don’t need to say things, "Well your brother," dot, dot, dot. No, you’re a standalone individual created in the image of God for His glory and these are the things that you’re able to do really well. I wonder if you’ve ever had a child ask, "Mom, Dad, am I smart?" How do you answer that question? It really makes a big difference, and we’re going to talk about ways to appropriately respond here today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. This is going to be a fascinating conversation about raising children who understand their identity in Christ. Thanks for joining us, I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, I love this idea that children are born with a bent. What does that mean? That’s for parents to figure out. You know, they like to talk, they don’t like to talk, they think more than they speak, etc. And it starts to show pretty early. I’m amazed at how early it does show up. I think our guest is going to say that might be not exactly the right question. It’s more like, "What smarts do I have?" maybe, because I think Kathy Koch is really into identifying the smarts that every child has, but there’s different categories. And that’s a great blessing to know that you’re in a good place as a parent, that your children can grow up confident and thinking, "Okay, I’ve got two or three of eight smart types." And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Psalm 139:13, 14 says, "For you formed my inner parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made." Isn’t that great? Fearfully and wonderfully made. The Lord tells the prophet Jeremiah that, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." And so it goes in scripture, God knows you. He knows everything about you. And today we’re going to talk about how to identify as a parent those great smarts that each child has.
John Fuller: And Dr. Kathy Koch has been studying this topic of intelligence for a number of years, more than 30 years, I think. And she’s a speaker, author, researcher, and the founder of Celebrate Kids, a ministry dedicated to equipping parents and caregivers and the body of Christ to help children feel seen and heard. Always a popular guest, Dr. Kathy’s book is called Eight Great Smarts: Discover and Nurture Your Child’s Intelligences. And of course, we have copies of that book here.
Jim Daly: Kathy, welcome back to Focus on the Family.
Dr. Kathy Koch: I am so glad to be here, Jim. Thank you.
Jim Daly: Now you know people love hearing from you. You do know this, don’t you? I mean, people just love your insights and, you know, you’re right up there. I love Kevin Leman with the birth order book or Gary Chapman with the love languages. You’re right in there. I mean, you’ve identified something that I think the Lord has anointed and really blessed and being able to identify, you know, your kid’s geniuses or smartness. I’m not sure what the right grammatical thing is there. But in the opening, talking about that question. So, inevitably, just about every child comes home from school, maybe didn’t get the best grade on a spelling bee. It starts early. And the child says to Mom and Dad, "Am I smart?" What do you say?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Well, depending upon the situation, "Of course you are," is a great response. Sometimes I would say, "Hey, you know, of course you are because God made you smart. God doesn’t make stupid people." Like, I like to tell children that stupid is their choice. And I would be careful about using the word stupid, so our listeners can decide whether or not their kids can handle it.
Jim Daly: The infamous S-word.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Exactly. But, you know, God makes people capable of being smart. It’s all based on the decisions we make and the worldview that we root those in, which is why we would believe in a biblical Christian worldview being so important. So the question today is not, "Am I smart?" or even, "Well how smart am I?" which is bully playground language from our era. "You know, I’m smarter than you are." We either said it or we heard it. That was a pretty common thing. But today I’m so excited that the question is, "Well how am I smart?" and then, "Why did God make me this way?" Like, what a gift to give young children and teenagers an idea that God chose this for them and there’s a reason for it.
Jim Daly: Yeah. You know, I think this is fair, the understanding that we can develop in the ways that we’re smart and how it affects our identity. You think about that. I mean, if you speak a little differently, people will think you’re not very bright even though you could be incredibly bright. And you also speak to that idea of identity.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh, we teach about it all the time, Jim. Identity controls behavior. Who I think I am is who I will be. And if our children don’t think they’re smart, then they think God skipped them in the assembly line. And of course he doesn’t have an assembly line approach. As you read from the scripture to start the show, he knits us together, which is a precise skill. He’s very careful at that. And unique. Yeah, he chooses us to be who we are and to know that in our knowing is just different for kids to go, "Hey, I’m picture smart. My brother’s logic smart, but I’m smart too in a different way, and God wants me to be smart this way."
Jim Daly: And we’re going to hit all of that. Let’s hit the smarts. Let’s list them and then we’re going to begin to go through them. So what are the eight smarts?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Yeah, we have all eight, which is God’s generosity, right? So we’re word smart, we think with words. When we’re being logic smart, we think with questions. When we’re being picture smart, we think with our eyes and visuals. When we are being music smart, we think with rhythms and melodies. When we are being body smart, we think with movement and touch. When we’re being nature smart, we think with patterns. When we’re being people smart, we think with other people. And when we’re being self-smart, we think deeply inside of ourselves.
Jim Daly: Yeah, wow.
Dr. Kathy Koch: And we have all eight. The capacity for all eight.
Jim Daly: So you can function in any of them, I would think. You just have bents, like I said in the beginning.
Dr. Kathy Koch: I love that you said that. We can choose to go to that part of the brain. If I walk into a Sunday school class and I know that I’m going to need to be thinking with words and thinking with questions, I can choose to go into that space and shut off the visual imagination if I feel like it would help me. We have some power there.
Jim Daly: You know, in our parenting role, this is the one thing I hear from all the parenting experts is you have to know your child. That’s a big word, to know your child. It’s this thing. How do they learn? How do they express their smarts? Right? And you need to be a student of your child to really know them.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh please, absolutely. You know what, Jim? God knows us. Like, God knew us before he formed us. So we are drawn to people who know us. If you want to have influence over your children, know them, because they will come to you. Otherwise, they’re going to go to an AI chatbot because they believe the lie that they’re known there. Know them, talk their language, welcome them into your world and allow them to be successful and then acknowledge that they’ve pleased the Lord and that they���ve pleased you and they’re going to want to spend time with you and that changes everything. Grandparents, parents, older siblings, teachers can do this too. Sunday school teachers can do this too.
Jim Daly: Well, and I think as parents we’re busy and we can easily justify, "I got a lot on my plate." But it really is kind of the core ingredient is loving and knowing your child. That’s like job one for all of us. I’m singing all your tunes.
Dr. Kathy Koch: You’re doing such a great job! And I feel compelled. I mean, I just want to be that Dad. I love that about both of you guys. You know, and to like our children. Children tell me on a regular basis, "Dr. Kathy, they have to love me, they don’t have a choice," which is kind of true. But then they’ll say, "But I wish they would like me." And they feel liked when we hang out with them. They feel liked when we say, "Hey, do you want to shoot hoops?" They feel liked when we say, "Hey, do you want to play checkers again? It was so much fun last night." When we come in their direction, they feel valued and that, again, that changes everything.
Jim Daly: All right, coming back to the list. Word smart, it’s first. You are a word person. Maybe that’s why it’s first. But describe word smart and what is it?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Yeah, word smart people think with words, so they read, write, speak, and listen. And the reason it’s first is that it’s what I call a school smart. It’s not the most important smart. However, in traditional schooling and often in a Sunday school church setting, what do we do? We read, write, speak, and listen. So these children who have been gifted by God with brain cells in that part of the brain are going to feel smarter than others and school is a safer place for them to be. So these are the readers, writers, speakers, and listeners. They’re not afraid of, you know, writing papers and not afraid of reading out loud for the most part.
Jim Daly: No, I so appreciate that. You know, I’m thinking of how these psychological tests all kind of collide, and of course you have a PhD. But I looked at—I think it was the DISC tests, D-I-S-C, and I think it was that one, but it described your approach. Like if you’re a verbal person. So I mean, one of the things that really caught my attention with that is said when I’m under pressure, I can lean into verbal attack because I’m a verbal person. And isn’t it interesting how all these things kind of orbit the same truth of God’s word? I mean, they’re identifying the way God has created us and kind of the limitations we experience in this life with personality. We’re all unique, but we all kind of have core emotions like that. So a verbal person, one of the downsides of them is the way they fight their way out of a bag is by verbal attack because that’s my asset, that’s my sword.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Right. You know what? We misbehave with our strengths. Interesting, yes. Like, I think our weaknesses concern us and we’re on our knees and we pray. I pray we do that. But their strengths drive us nuts because too much of a good thing isn’t a good thing. You know, so too much talking. Would you just go away? You know, and if I would have been raised that way, I wouldn’t be here on the radio with you today. So we have to see that, "Oh, this is a strength to develop, not a problem to eliminate." And that’s a powerful choice that parents have.
Jim Daly: You know, and it’s hard to—I can remember being five years old, I said this last time we were together, and Penny, my mom’s best friend, Penny Mitchell, and I remember she said to me, "Man, you’ve got diarrhea of the mouth." And it crushed me to where I just didn’t talk the rest of the day. I thought, "Okay, that’s a bad thing. I’m talking too much as a five-year-old." And I overcame it and I didn’t have to go to counseling for it. So I don’t want to be too much on Penny. I was just talking too much. But speak to that general concept of a word smart child who is going to be perceived as talking too much.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Exactly. And I mean, that was unnecessary for her to say it that way. I understand what she was trying to say. Like, I’ve taught parents to say that their ears are full. You know, "My ears are full. I can’t handle this right now." And one little five-year-old said, "Well Mom, just tip your head over and just knock the—the words will fall out," you know. That’s a word smart kid! It is, you know. But the point is that really for all of the eight, anything well done is badly done. But those—again, my—I was a Chatty Kathy from the time I was about three years old. I loved a thesaurus when I was a kid.
Jim Daly: That was your favorite book?
Dr. Kathy Koch: It was, I know. And people think that that’s crazy, but I was even back then interested in words. I’ve now written nine books using a thesaurus. Childhood causes adulthood. Look who you’ve become and what you’re doing. Today comes before tomorrow. And my parents though, you know, they saw all the words in me as a strength to develop. So they taught my brother and myself to listen. They taught me to not overwhelm with words. Because you know what? Satan, if I can go here guys, Satan wants our strengths for his kingdom. So those of us who are word smart, we can gossip, tease, name-call, demand the last word, impress with all that we know, lie and not get caught. And then Satan wins. If that would become my reputation, my ministry would be done. So to be the parent who challenges children with biblical character, to have respect for yourself and for others and to have self-control, and so you learn to not speak even though you want to and you learn to listen well. Otherwise, the gift that God’s given you—Ephesians 2:10, Psalm 139—becomes a liability. And then parents say "don’t, don’t, don’t" like this woman who called it out and then you don’t and then God loses and you lose because you don’t get the joy of serving through the gift that was chosen for you.
Jim Daly: I must say, I think it only lasted an afternoon that I didn’t talk. Praise God that you overcame it! I overcame it quickly. Went right back to talking. But again, it’s that thing of being a good parent, a healthy parent and knowing how to interact with your child. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and our guest today is Dr. Kathy Koch, and we’re covering some of the content in one of her books called Eight Great Smarts: Discover and Nurture Your Child’s Intelligences. It is a terrific resource. Every parent should have a copy. Get yours today from us here at the ministry when you stop by FocusOnTheFamily.com/weekend. We’ll be right back after this.
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John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let’s resume now with the balance of today’s programming.
Jim Daly: Kathy, the second smart you highlight is logic smart. Now what person doesn’t want to be known as logic smart? We all do because it’s so vaulted in the culture. I’m logical. I’m point of emotion. This is Spock from Star Trek. I’m a walking computer, I’m so logical. But speak to that smart and what does it look like?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Right, it’s so fun. These are the people who think with questions and they love it when things make sense. So they tend to gravitate toward math because math makes sense. Not everybody might agree, but it does. You know, two plus two is always four and 22 plus 22 is always 44. And logic smart children and adults tend to gravitate toward science because they love to discover truth. In fact, highly logical people would rather discover truth than be taught truth. When you say to a kid, "Don’t touch that," they’re like, "Oh, what’s going to happen? This is going to be so cool." And they touch it and complain and then you yell because they touched it. But they were logic—well you wouldn’t yell because you’re a Christian—but the kids are like, "No, I just had to know what would happen if I touched it." So logic smart kids love to discover truth, they love it when the world makes sense. They like discovery. So scripture’s complex for them. And the fact that Jesus went to the cross for them, like why would he have done that? Like I didn’t even know him or ask him to. That’s overwhelming. Spelling, as you guys know, spelling isn’t my strength. I still write books and I’ve earned a PhD, but the English language makes no sense. So for someone who’s logic smart like I am, you know, the fact that the E at the end of the word doesn’t make the first vowel long is somewhat overwhelming. Or my last name, spelled K-O-C-H, which we pronounce Koch, that—that’s just bizarre. Which is why I go by Dr. Kathy professionally.
Jim Daly: Or knife.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Yeah, knife and, you know, quicksand is slow, by the way. I mean, the English language is bizarre. So logic smart children see that the reason that we might struggle with something is how we’re smart. So if you struggle with spelling, it might be because you’re smart in a logic smart way and you get quickly irritated by that. And so it’s not that you’re dumb, you’re actually smart in a particular way. And let me just add too, Jim, the only reason it’s number two on the way that I present them in my book is that it also is a school smart because what do we do all day in school? We ask and answer questions. And science and math are, you know, obviously important disciplines.
Jim Daly: Let me ask you this distinction with the logic smart child when you start, you know, talking about little deeper things, depending upon their age, but the truth of God’s word, that he is truth. They would probably struggle a little bit with that concept, I would think, like, "How do we know that? I know two plus two is four, but how do I know the Bible is true?"
Dr. Kathy Koch: Exactly. Yeah, they’re going to probably have more doubts. So don’t become irritated with the logic child. You need to think through how you’re going to parent that differently. Come on. I mean, what a compliment that they’ve admitted to you that they’re confused. Like if you’re a Christ-follower and the most important thing for you is that your children know, love, serve, glorify God and they’re confused, like but they come to you? Like praise the Lord that they’re safe with you. "Daddy, I don’t understand." So you use cross-referencing and you look at the same concept in all four of the Gospels and you have the children’s pastor on speed dial, perhaps. You know, and you—you do what you can do to find out how you can explain truth to a seven-year-old and you just hang in there. And you say, "You know, son, there’ll be a day when I believe you’re going to understand in your spirit," because right, the Holy Spirit’s role is to teach, convict, and comfort us. It’s going to be really, really hard. I came to faith in Christ for wisdom. You know, most people come to faith in Christ for love. I’m an introvert from a really close family. Colossians 2:3 was my victory verse, that in Christ is hidden all wisdom and knowledge. My pastor, to God be the glory, figured out I wasn’t looking for love. Now once I trusted Christ, I knew the depth of his love, but that wasn’t the appeal for me because I thought I had enough. What I wanted was answers to my questions. And he, praise God, didn’t dismiss me, didn’t slap my hand, but hung out with me and showed me that I was looking for the same God others were looking for and I was coming to it with a different pathway. And you might have a kid like that. So then you say, "Hey, God is wise, God knows all things," and hang out with him and he’ll teach you all things.
Jim Daly: Yeah. You know, as a parent you can sometimes not see clearly where the bent of your child might be in these eight that we’re talking about. I remember Trent when he got his license. He actually waited until 17 and I remember I put the curfew on him, you know, "If you’re going to be out, you’re home by midnight because nothing good happens after midnight." This is how you know you have a logic-driven child. And he goes, "Do you have empirical data that supports that?"
Dr. Kathy Koch: Did he really?
Jim Daly: That’s exactly what he said! And I went, "Yeah, me. When I was 16, I shouldn’t have stayed out after midnight." But isn’t it true? I mean, that’s an example of where you need to tune in because that’s—that’s the filter in which he was like, "Prove it to me."
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh, that’s so good. "How do you know that?" Right? And then this is where we say, "Son, please trust me because I’ve lived longer than you and I know."
Jim Daly: And he wasn’t being a smart-aleck. No, just exactly who he was. He was being a scientist. Like, "Where’d you get that data?" Isn’t that funny? Oh, it is. But it’s so true. Can I ask a question, Jim? Has that shown up in his whole life?
Jim Daly: Oh yeah, he’s doing his masters in biochemistry right now.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Bingo. See, and if you would have handled that badly, he might have been afraid of questions and afraid of data even, and he wouldn’t be doing what he’s doing.
Jim Daly: No, I mean, it’s been fun to watch that whole logic thing develop. Oh, that’s so cool. I mean, he’s into all the logic. Oh, that’s so cool. You talked in the book related to the logic smart child how it’s important for us as parents to foster in them a respect for others and kind of a self-respect. Why is that important and how do we do that practically?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh, thanks for asking that. So a respect for others matters greatly because you know, maybe there’s somebody who’s not ready to handle that question or that answer and we know that intuitively so we don’t put them in a position where they’re going to feel dumb. Or maybe there’s somebody we’re with who’s very logic smart like we are and they want to figure it out on their own. So we let them discover so they have that joy of getting the answer right before we gave the answer away. So respect is, you know, I know who I am and I’m going to be that to the glory of God. So I’m going to search for truth and I’m going to search for answers and I’m going to be, you know, excited that God made me this way without being prideful. Those would be some of the quick answers. I think respect for others because we live in community. Respect for myself so that I use the strengths for good and not bad. You know, John, logic smart people can either blow up a chem lab or they can prevent the chem lab from being blown up. Logic smart people can solve problems, but I know they can also create problems for other people to solve. And that’s a very fine line. And when parents ask their children to be smart with their smarts, they’re going to grow into that into that life. You teach character through the scripture, through the model of your life, and through the words that you teach and through correcting. We have to say to our children that was sin. "I’m so disappointed in your choice." We have to call it out and say "here’s a better way for you to have handled that."
Jim Daly: Yeah, that’s so good. I want to ask you this one. I actually did a wedding the other day. And officiated it, I think I’ve done four here in Colorado. Oh, that’s such an honor! It was an honor. And the groom’s father came up to me and I was complimenting him on his son, he’s just a great guy, you know, you could see it. And he said, "Well, my pastor taught me to raise character, not to raise characters." What a great line! You know, to raise character. And that’s my question, when you’re looking at all these smarts and as a parent you’re trying to develop their character as well, is that unique when you look at the smarts and how you go about developing character? Because character sounds pretty set—that you’re truthful, that you’re loving, that you’re kind, that you hopefully are developing the heart of God as you’re growing up and as a parent you want to see that. Is that different with the logic kid and the word smart kid and how do we—yeah, so speak to that.
Dr. Kathy Koch: No, that’s really a good question. So if I was raising a word smart child, I would speak the truth and I might sit down, you know, and go for a, you know, a donut date maybe, go for a just go out and talk and walk in the park and talk it out and explain it and define it. And don’t be short of patience with doing that. That’s the point. You gotta know your child needs to hear this from you and interact with you this way. Because we can be kind of like, "Can we get this done? It’s five minutes." Oh totally. But you know what you guys? Character’s the hardest thing we’ll ever teach because it goes against the sin nature. So we have to hang in there. And when you know the smarts, you know how to teach. So with logic smart, questions and answers, cause/effect. "If you said that, what do you think would happen? If you stole that donut and you did get away with it and you ate it before anyone knew that you had done it, how do you think you’d feel? So would you really want to do that?" If somebody is picture smart, you would help them maybe draw the best answer etc., so I do think the smarts give us specific language through which we can embrace our kids, which makes it just easier. And it also helps us figure out who we are so we’re modeling to be good, if you will. Picture smart, you mentioned it. Let’s cover that one as well. What is picture smart? So we have word smart, we have logic smart, now we have picture smart.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Right. And now the order doesn’t matter. Those were the first two because of the school connection. Picture smart kids and adults think with visuals in their mind, they have a vivid imagination usually. If I say that, you know, there’s a duck in the lake, they can see it before they can actually see the duck in the lake. They think with their eyes and they also think with the pictures on paper. They’ll doodle and they’ll draw and they’ll turn the page and see the picture before they see the words on the page. They might remember how something looks by the shape and the design and by the color. So they’re interested in art, they’re interested in creativity and design. History is probably one of their strengths because they remember what they—they’re reading, they see what they’re reading. Bible also. In fact, these are the children who tell me they know what God looks like because they’ve seen him when they pray, which is beautiful.
Jim Daly: Yeah, it’s so good though. Yeah, you just have to have that imagination as a parent, which is great, to think about how you communicate with each child.
Dr. Kathy Koch: And to remember, Jim, that they’re not created in our image. They’re created in God’s. Really, like as an example.
Jim Daly: That kind of hurt. I don’t know why I felt that knife, but I did.
Dr. Kathy Koch: And they will become much like you because you’re influencing them. But as an example, I’m not very picture smart. So if I had a little—if I had a daughter, "Mommy, Mommy, God showed me what to do." I’d be like, "No he doesn’t do that." Well he doesn’t do it for me because I’m word smart and logic smart, so God communicates to me through the written word and through the voice if you will and the scripture. But yeah, if I had a kid and that kid was picture smart, that would be because God has a sense of humor and he would want me to develop an ability I don’t naturally have. And then I would say to my kid, "Tell me what God showed you."
Jim Daly: So let’s say—and I’m sure genetics can play into this, but I’m thinking of the engineer and the accountant mom and dad. And they have this picture smart kid. I mean, you’ve got to think about how do I relate to this kid who’s thinking in pictures and I think in numbers. What’s—what’s some advice for that parent to be able to communicate with that picture smart kid when you’re coming from that background?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Such a compassionate question. First, we can remember we have all eight. We have the capacity for all eight. We usually have a few that are stronger and a few that we don’t use easily. But these parents do have the picture smart ability. In fact, engineering is picture smart. My dad was a gifted engineer and he could hang, no joke, he could hang a picture above the couch exactly in the middle without measuring.
Jim Daly: No, no, no. Jean told me that’s impossible.
Dr. Kathy Koch: No, no. With the right kind of mind, it’s possible. And his particular job as an engineer was very much based on the picture smart part of his mind. So I would want parents to not assume they can’t relate. And then we say to our kid, "Hey, explain that longer. Give me more information so I can relate to what it is that you’re struggling with or that I can relate to the joy that you’re expressing because I don’t see the world the way you see it. God’s made you uniquely beautiful for our family. Tell me more."
Jim Daly: Yeah, that’s so good. Kathy, we’re going to come back next time and cover more of the eight, so let’s do that. Today’s been great. It’s been insightful. I hope you’re connected with it. I’m certainly connected with the content. And I appreciate it. Thanks for all the research. Man, the fact that you did a PhD in this so you could be here now talking about it. That’s awesome! And it’s a wonderful resource that you’ve created, Eight Great Smarts, and this is something you need. And if you can make a gift of any amount, if you could do it monthly that helps us tremendously, a one-time gift as well. But send it and we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thanks.
John Fuller: Yeah, donate today, get your book when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or stop by our website, focusonthefamily.com/weekend. And we hope you’ll plan to join us as well, and thanks for listening to today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Dr. Kathy and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
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Jim Daly: Their strengths drive us nuts because too much of a good thing isn’t a good thing. You know, so too much talking, "Would you just go away?" You know, and if I would have been raised that way, I wouldn’t be here on the radio with you today. So we have to see that, "Oh, this is a strength to develop, not a problem to eliminate." And that’s a powerful choice that parents have.
John Fuller: That’s Dr. Kathy Koch describing some practical ways you can nurture your child in the unique ways he or she is smart. You’re going to want to stick around for the rest of the story as we continue an insightful conversation today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller. We had a fascinating conversation last time with Dr. Kathy about her book Eight Great Smarts. You probably fit a couple of them very dramatically, maybe one very specifically. And you’ll just need to go back and listen to that if you didn’t hear it. You can get the audio download from the website or better yet you can go to YouTube or the broadcast app. I mean, it’s got everything there. You just go and you can listen to thousands of programs, but Kathy’s will be there today and you can listen to her last time and today.
Jim Daly: Yeah, and Dr. Kathy Koch is always a favorite with our audience, John. She’s a speaker, author, researcher, podcaster, and she founded a great organization called Celebrate Kids. As we said, we’re covering some of the content in her book Eight Great Smarts. Stop by our website to get a copy. Dr. Kathy, welcome back.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here, Jim. Thank you for your support.
Jim Daly: I enjoy talking with you because you love kids. I love kids. I mean, kids are hilarious. They’re so—first of all, I don’t know if this is a smart or not, but kids are so blunt.
Dr. Kathy Koch: True.
Jim Daly: They’re just out there, right? You know, especially like things like different hair color, different skin color. They just say it.
Dr. Kathy Koch: They don’t have a filter like we do.
Jim Daly: Right. They haven’t developed that yet. I don’t know. Sometimes you gotta be ready as a parent, right?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Yes, this is true.
Jim Daly: And then you start saying things like, "We don’t say that to people." Did you ever have—that experience is so funny. Listen, we covered last time the word smart child, the picture smart child, the logic smart child. And it was good. I mean, really is good. And it’s one of those concepts that you can really latch into. It’s kind of like I mentioned last time, like Kevin Leman with the birth order book. It may not fit 100%, but there are—it’s like a spiritual kind of insight that somebody like you or Kevin Leman or Gary Chapman, you just hit on it and it’s right there and once you expose it to the rest of us we’re going, "Oh my goodness, she’s absolutely right."
Dr. Kathy Koch: I love that. I do think this is visible. You can see this and you can see it in yourself and you can see it in kids, which does make it really fun.
Jim Daly: How do we manage patience with children’s smarts when we don’t align with that smart? And I think that really does drive some parents a little to impatience.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh, totally understandable. It’s not about us, it’s about them. You know, you chose to have children or you chose to be a, you know, a teacher. So we love them well by letting them be who they are with boundaries, which are blessings when love is the goal. So just, you know, if you have a word smart kid, it doesn’t mean let them talk forever. There needs to be obedience or needs to be blessing, but we offer input and instruction so that they can be smart with their smarts, not that they would have the smarts diminished in them.
Jim Daly: You know, so often as parents we say to ourselves, "I wish I could have a do-over." You know, especially when the kids are young and we lack patience to do the right thing and, you know, we get angry, we have an outburst. Hopefully that’s it and there’s no physical issues or something like that. But in the normal parenting, how do we get ahead of that? I know so many people having children right now, it’s awesome. And I’d love to be able to have them tip into this discussion. But as a parent, how do you not have those regrets? How do you do it well the first time? I mean, what would you say to a 28-year-old young mom who’s got a new child and or maybe a three-year-old? And, you know, how do I not make those mistakes?
Dr. Kathy Koch: There’s a big part of me that wants to say you will make those mistakes. That’s fair. So it’s how you respond to them that really matters.
Jim Daly: What do you concentrate on as a new parent to make sure that you minimize those mistakes?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Raising the children you were given, not the children you wish you had. Oof. Making sure that if you have a picture smart child, you ask about her vivid imagination and you spend a lot of money on paper and watercolor. And be okay with that. And you be okay with that.
Jim Daly: What if they color the walls? That’s the problem.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Well then, so maybe you have—yeah, maybe you do let, "This is your wall. This is exactly. Yeah." If your child can handle the fact that, "This is your wall but this isn’t your wall," let them color on the wall. It’s just a wall. And you can paint it. And then you make the—but if it’s disobedience, then the child there’s a consequence, which would include that the child gets to repaint the wall. So there is a consequence for the choice. But we expect them to be smart with their smarts. We honor who God’s created them to be and we want to give them opportunities to be successful. So we do let them fingerpaint, but we do it outside and they’re wearing clothes that we don’t care if they get messy. And that we believe in our believing that God was smart to make our children this way and that it’s our privileged responsibility to nurture them up in the way that they’ve been created to be. To believe that your picture smart children will be, you know, art teachers or historians or great Bible scholars because they can see it come alive in their mind and they teach with such vivid language that everybody in their church is like, "That was the best message ever." Like, believe that God’s done something powerful for your kid and don’t get in the way. And if you’re in the way, apologize, ask to be forgiven, get yourself some help, know who you are, celebrate that, don’t lust after somebody else’s smarts. I could go on and on, but this is why I wrote the book, you know, to give people hope that they can get it right. Because it’s complicated, kids are complex.
Jim Daly: This is a little tongue-in-cheek, but it’s actually true. When our boys were young, I mean, they were out on the sidewalk painting with chalk. Guess who came to pay a visit? The HOA president. Oh my goodness! "We don’t allow chalk painting." I mean, my kids are like five and three. I’m going, "That’s wrong. Totally wrong." So anyway, but I’m sure a few people are going, "Yep, that’s my HOA too." But you know, roll with the punches, find a way to let your kids express themselves appropriately.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Right. And this is our chance for us to say, "No, we will obey our rulers." You know, let’s—that’s biblical. Yeah, that’s a great way to handle it. And then we find the backyard cement, you know, where they can’t be seen or we go to the park to swing on the swing set, but we take our bucket of sidewalk chalk and we leave really cool messages on the sidewalk: "God loves you." Oh, that’s good. "And have you noticed the daisies in the corner?" I mean, and then the next kids who come get blessed by that.
Jim Daly: For the new listeners today and viewers, let’s hit the eight just topically. Just let’s hit them and then we’ll pick up descriptions on the latter end.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Okay. And everybody has the capacity for all eight, I want to say that because God’s a generous God. So word smart people think with words. Logic smart people think with questions. Picture smart people think with their eyes, with visuals. Music smart people think with rhythms and melodies. Body smart people with movement and touch. Nature smart people with patterns. People smart people with other people. And self-smart people think deeply inside of themselves with reflection.
Jim Daly: This is going to be good. I’m looking forward to covering hopefully all of them if we can, but certainly most of them. Music smart, you mentioned that one. I am not music smart. Man, I am like tone-deaf. I don’t have it.
Dr. Kathy Koch: And okay, that’s okay. It’s okay to say that that’s number seven or eight for me if I were to make a list because to think that we have all eight to the max would be arrogant and that’s not appropriate. But those of us who do have music smart brain cells, we think with rhythms and melodies. We make music when we’re excited, so we whistle, toe-tap, beep-bop, and we might choose a church for the quality of the worship and we might spend a lot of our free time and our money on music. And these are kids who will go to the nursery when they’re two and they’ll find the glockenspiel. Those are kids asking for piano lessons when they’re six. Wow. So you can look at what do they enjoy in their free time and that’s going to show you maybe what they’re going to grow up and become.
Jim Daly: I remember Troy and I only went to his piano lesson once. And it was like eight weeks in. So the piano instructor says, "Let’s play the key of G. If you don’t know where it’s at, ask your parent." No! So I’m sitting on the bench with him and Troy’s looking at me like, "Where’s G?" I’m going, "Troy, I’m so sorry. I haven’t a clue." So I had to wave to the teacher and have her come over. I felt like stupid. I am so sorry again! She didn’t need to do that to you! Well, no, but I needed somebody to tell him where G was. Well, anyway. But I mean, that’s part of it. So I—you know, it’s hard for me again as a parent to think that my child could be music smart. It’s so out of my orbit, I’m not even sure how to relate to that.
Dr. Kathy Koch: I appreciate you bringing that up because there is research that suggests that the earlier the smarts are awakened, the greater the likelihood they’re a strength for a lifetime. So normally it would be that the parent would be modeling something that the child would want to become. So my parents were both music smart, so Dave and I developed music smart ability early on in our lives. In your case, you’re right, like you didn’t model that for your son, so it’s surprising to you that he—but I think if you don’t give a kid piano lessons, you won’t know that God created that kid to be music smart. Again, created in God’s image, not ours. It’s 100% wired into us by God and nurtured into children by God’s people. So God’s in charge of all of it, whether it’s through the DNA if you will, the creative intent God has when he makes us us and then the experiences. Like you could take a kid to a concert and they could be like, "I want to play the piano, Dad, that was the most amazing thing I’ve ever heard." And then he’s eight and you start piano lessons because he went to the symphony and he heard this guy on this big black massive piano go crazy nuts and a kid is like, "That was the most beautiful thing I’ve ever heard."
Jim Daly: Interesting, I read some brain research that said before six years old you develop tone ability, tonal ability and foreign language. If you’re exposed before like age six, you’ll pick up foreign languages quicker. Isn’t that interesting? Yeah, the brain is amazing. All right, body smart. Now you can make so much fun of this one, right? I mean, what is a body smart smart?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh come on. These are the movers, shakers. "Hey, look at my biceps!" Well you’re body smart, Jim, in that you talk with your hands. I do. And I’ve watched you lean back and lean forward. I talk with my hands. If I put my hands in my pocket, they’ll be there for like 10 seconds when I’m giving a speech. But body smart people think with movement and touch. We might be athletic, we might be in drama, we can make our whole body look angry even though we’re not. We can pour a glass of milk and not spill. We are the surgeons who will get the body back together right, the chiropractor who keeps the person’s body on the table. You know, the drummer versus the flute player.
Jim Daly: So like dexterity plays into it.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Dexterity would be part of it. And yeah, we turn every chair into rocking chairs. If you’re raising a body smart kid, buy him a clipboard and let him study his spelling words walking in the backyard. Let him swing on the swing set when he’s memorizing a poem and that body smartness if you will is going to enhance the ability to learn. It seems foreign to us because it might not work for us, but again, it might be the kid that you were given.
Jim Daly: You know, in that context, there’s been a lot of many, many articles talking about over-prescription on ADHD, ADD. I would think this plays into that. Body smart people can be very active and irritating, if I could say it that way. So parents from what I understand from the literature a lot of parents are over-prescribing with their physicians things to control body expression. How do you feel about that?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Can I be brave here? I think in many cases we are medicating out of children the greatest channel God’s given them through which they can embrace life. What a beautiful way to look at that. Thank you. But again it requires patience on the parent’s part. And you know, the proper diagnosis, the proper pediatrician, the proper exam of food and food dyes and sleep patterns and all kinds of things. If children have been gifted by God to be body smart, you’ll know it early on, and they need as everyone else does, we talked about it in the last episode, self-control, self-respect, and respect for others. I teach children that even if you’re the most body smart kid in the class, you’re not allowed to move if it makes it hard for the teacher to teach and hard for the other students to learn. You can choose to control yourself. So I write about this in the book, a child who drums their fingers on the table, which is a combination of maybe music smart and body smart, and they like it, it actually calms them down, it might give them energy, but it’s bothering everybody else. You can teach that child to take their fingers and do it on their thigh under the desk. And I’ll say to kids, it’s not as satisfying because it doesn’t make noise, but it’s not about you being happy all the time. It’s about you learning to live in community and you need to do that. And by the way guys, learning to live in community starts in the family. So it’s not a question—like for our listeners—it’s not a question of "how do I get that to stop? Stop it, stop it, stop it!" It’s "how do I redirect all that energy to something less offensive?" And that’s doable. But again, it takes instruction, not punishment. And it takes compassion and empathy and love and a choice.
Jim Daly: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.
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John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let’s resume now with the balance of today’s programming.
Jim Daly: Dr. Kathy, what does it look like to be nature smart? This one I’m a little lost on as well.
Dr. Kathy Koch: These kids think with patterns, and so do the adults. They know that it’s not a blue jay, it’s a bluebird because they remember where the blue goes on the body or the wing of the bird. Huh. They might know the names of the clouds. You know, I travel every week on an airplane, you’d think I’d know the names of the clouds, I don’t. I’m not terribly nature smart although I’m word smart, my vocabulary for nature is weaker. Nature smart kids would rather be outdoors than indoors, they’ll do better in biology than they will in chemistry. They’ll do better in earth science than they will in physics. They want to sit outside at a restaurant, they love to get dirty, they dig in the dirt, and they’ll run the pet store at the mall and they’ll be dog walkers when they’re 14 earning money for church camp in the summer.
Jim Daly: Yeah, I hadn’t even thought about it in terms of those patterns and watching snowflakes or something, right?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Exactly. Yeah, the nature smart kid looks out the window and is distracted by that and talks to the dog more than they talk to the mom.
Jim Daly: What are some ways then, Dr. Kathy, that we can foster that child who just longs to be outdoors and maybe my lifestyle right now and ours is a family doesn’t allow for so much time outdoors?
Dr. Kathy Koch: I appreciate that question. Maybe we’re living in an apartment and it’s not safe to be out at a park. But you can go to the park as a family, you can walk through a botanical garden for free in most cities. You can go to a garden shop and buy a tulip or a geranium and plant it and it’s on the windowsill of your child’s bedroom. And you could ask for a zoo membership for Christmas rather than another toy that a week later they’ll forget they have in the closet. So and I think again, we can do this. I love your question, John, because we’re born with the capacity for all eight, but they do have to be awakened and it’s the activities and the games and the books and the conversations that will do that.
Jim Daly: Yeah, my wife is definitely a nature smart person. I like the outdoors, but we spent so many summers camping to the point where at one point one of our daughters said, "Do we have to do this again? I’m so tired of camping." And I think what I hear you saying is give them opportunities and you’ll find out.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Yes. Do they gravitate toward that or not? If you—if we never give them the opportunity for camping or piano lessons, we won’t know and they won’t know where their gifts might lie.
Jim Daly: This idea of people smart, that’s intriguing to me. I would assume that would be things like they can read a room pretty quickly, they know the people, they see behind the eyes of that person. But children actually have that capacity?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh yes sir. And this—I think this is the most important smart because it’s how they know who is safe for them. They can walk into a room and go, "I’m going to sit there." Or they go, "I’m going to avoid that person." Interesting. And these are the kids who, you know, your sons when they were young, they walked up to you and they wanted you to say yes but you had no written all over your face so they turned away. And then you’re like, "Can I help you?" and the kid is like, "No." And you’re like, "I have time now," and the kid is like, "I don’t care," you know, because I wanted a yes. So it’s a really, really important skill. It’s been awakened later because of the pandemic and masking and eyes down on devices and we don’t ask our kids to look up and say please and thank you.
Jim Daly: Let’s go a little slower on that because this is critical. I mean, what you’re saying is that the years of COVID muted that ability to develop people smarts.
Dr. Kathy Koch: It’s a great verb that you use. Right. It’s never too late, but we have to understand that we have children from a certain age group, you know, 5 to 10 years old now maybe, that were raised in that and we need to help them. And we need to get their eyes off of their devices so they can look up and go, "Oh that person’s happy, that person’s sad, that person’s mad." Otherwise, again, they won’t know who’s for them. And the other thing that’s so powerful about being people smart and you two gentlemen are so good at this, it is interacting with people to develop truth. It’s collaborating, networking. These are kids who can debate without arguing. They can persuade and convince without bullying. This is a very, very important skill. We want and we want our kids to be able to, as an example, talk about Jesus Christ without making people mad. And that’s people smart. I would teach it early and I would teach it often.
Jim Daly: How do you—and I want to make sure we hear this clearly—in teaching a people smart child not to manipulate? Because you kind of put the dark end of this as their ability to manipulate is quite—quite high versus the ability to use their people smart for good. Again, just talk about it in that context and then for the parent who’s now troubled that they can outsmart the parent.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh definitely. That’s the unfortunate. Yeah, but speak to that whole thing. All of the eight have a dark side, which I do write about in the book. Yeah, people smart kids can manipulate. I’ve asked children and young adults, "How many of you can get your mom to say yes when she should have said no?" All the hands go up! At least 80% and then they laugh. And then I say, "Don’t ever be proud again of doing something you shouldn’t have done that you can do." And I can do that as the outside stranger, you know, but so can the mom. The mom can say, now that they’re listening to this broadcast, the mom and the dad can say, "Hey, we’re going to listen to this together. I want you to hear from the expert. And we’re going to train you to use your ability for good and not evil. So you can be full of grace more readily than somebody else but we’re not going to let you manipulate anymore." So this is where the mom stands up for herself and has respect and says to the child, "Uh-uh, we’re not going there. I said no. Already answered. Go to bed." And I’m not again, that’s a whole 'nother episode, but we can do that and we can make sure that our kids know that you have a talent and a gift that God’s chosen for you, praise God. Don’t use it the way you’re using it.
Jim Daly: Okay, last! We did get through these and yes, self-smart, which I do want to just pause on this one because it’s really intriguing to me. I think it’s a little less clear, the self-smart one. What does that world look like for the self-smart child?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Although it’s last, it’s not least important. Like just something has to be last, right? So self-smart people think deeply inside of themselves. They’ve never heard an easy question. Even "what do you want for lunch?" "Well I saw that Mom has ham in there but I had it yesterday. I don’t know. I wonder what we’re having for dinner? That might help me decide." I’m serious! Every question can require a complex analysis and it needs to feel right. So they need patience and they—you know what they tell me, Jim? They tell me they’re slow. These are the children who tell me they’re stupid.
Jim Daly: Oh, interesting. But they’re thinking deeply.
Dr. Kathy Koch: It’s quite opposite. Exactly. Exactly. And it’s so interesting. They need quiet, peace, privacy, and space. And many of them tell me, "But I share a bedroom. And my dad looks under the mattress. And my mom empties the backpack." I’m like, "They should. You’re a kid," you know. But let them go out on the porch swing and think something through. If you do family devotions, start it out and share the message for the night and share your worship song and pray and then give them all a question and let everybody in the family separate for four minutes. You can go to wherever you want as long as you are within the sound of the bell and when the bell rings come back. Everybody’ll benefit from that but the self-smart kids are like, "Oh cool. Cause now they can think without you staring at them while they’re thinking," which drives them absolutely nuts. So peace, quiet, privacy, space to encourage them to know that you’re not slow, you’re a deep thinker. It’ll change them. And understand the thing that’s hard, Jim, a lot of self-smart people, their joy is knowing and so they’re not likely to share with the church, the community, the school, or the mom and dad what they know, which is sad because they tend to know very, very good things. And we must encourage them to share. Hope that makes sense.
Jim Daly: It does, it does. I’m just thinking about that because I think I have one who is that in terms of the bent. I mean, like you said, you’re all of this but what sprouts out as a tendency or a more predictable pattern, right? I’m thinking of Lee Strobel, who we had on the broadcast, the author of Case for Christ. He encouraged me to ask the boys a question and the listeners to ask their teen 20-somethings a question. And it was, "If Jesus had to answer a question immediately, what question would you ask him?" So it does a lot the way you frame that. It’s an immediacy thing. It kind of boils it down to what is the question you would ask God, right? And so I was having lunch with Trent and Troy and I asked this. And it’s so funny because their bents came out. Trent the biochemistry guy and I said it to him and Trent says, "Give me 20 minutes and I’ll have an answer." I mean, I’m talking like on the mark at 20 minutes. He goes, "Okay, I’ve got my answer." "Okay, what is it?" And he goes, "I’d like to know what element are we missing that’s right in front of us that God used to create the universe?" And I went, "Wow, okay, that’s good." And Troy immediately said, "I’d ask him why we suffer." And this is my scientist and my philosopher theologian. You know, I would encourage parents to do that because I think it fits here, Kathy, with your information. I think it gives you an insight into where your kids are and, you know, at age-appropriate levels, but I think it’s wonderful and starts moving you in that direction. Let me ask you this right at the end here. It’s been wonderful as always to have you on. Always good energy and, you know, I hope the parents listening are benefiting and going, "Aha! Oh, writing a note on your phone. Gotta talk to my husband tonight about that one." But right at the end, we spent the last two days exploring the different ways we’re smart, and this applies to us too as parents. Know thyself, right? What are some things you hope our audience takes away from this conversation?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh, I appreciate that. Additional belief that God has been good to them, to make them how he’s made them, and that their children were strategically and intentionally created to be who they are for his glory and for this family. And we need to walk in that reality. I hope that there are adults who are realizing maybe they’ve not stretched themselves in ways that they could. I know of people who hear me speak and go back to college because they realize that they can do something that they’ve always wanted to do but thought they couldn’t do. Just a little encouragement. Wow! Because if you’re not terribly word and logic, you don’t think you’re designed for school. But you absolutely are. Plus you do have word and logic, you just have to choose to go there. So maybe we’ve encouraged people to not look down on themselves but to realize that they’re smart too. Because you know what guys? Smart is a power word. It’s a good word. When we think we’re smart, we study. If you don’t think you’re smart, you don’t bother studying because you don’t think it’ll help. So it’s just fascinating. So I pray for very, very strong encouragement and I pray that there’ll be practical conversations that people will choose to have as you’ve directed us beautifully to have.
Jim Daly: Yeah, and it’s such an amazing thing that God invites us in to be part of the Gospel. We have to be there, we’re that part of the ingredient and then the Holy Spirit comes with his ingredient and the Lord moves, you know. But it takes that care of an adult or a person in someone’s life to make a difference. Well, Dr. Kathy, this has been good. So good. Always good wisdom and insights from you. And your wonderful book Eight Great Smarts: Discover and Nurture Your Child’s Intelligences. Not one, but some part of all eight. Right. And you can get a copy of this great book. Be in ministry with us. Man, mend a marriage, help a parent do a better job, save a baby’s life. That happens each and every day here at Focus and we can make it fun. You get a great resource. If you do that monthly that helps us tremendously, a one-time gift as well. But we’ll send you Kathy’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry and helping others. It really is a resource that will revolutionize your approach to identity and intelligence. It’s that good. And we’re so thankful for friends like you who support the ministry. Our research shows that over the last 12 months, our joint efforts together have helped more than 80,000 parents work through a significant crisis in their parenting. That’s a huge impact for families, right? 80,000 people just in the past year helping them through that marital crisis.
John Fuller: Yeah, that’s generational impact and that’s all because of folks who come alongside and support us, pray for this ministry. And that’s why we’re inviting you today to donate generously. Our number’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or donate and get Dr. Kathy’s book Eight Great Smarts when you stop by focusonthefamily.com/weekend. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
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Jim Daly: Their strengths drive us nuts because too much of a good thing isn’t a good thing. You know, so too much talking, "Would you just go away?" You know, and if I would have been raised that way, I wouldn’t be here on the radio with you today. So we have to see that, "Oh, this is a strength to develop, not a problem to eliminate." And that’s a powerful choice that parents have.
John Fuller: That’s Dr. Kathy Koch describing some practical ways you can nurture your child in the unique ways he or she is smart. You’re going to want to stick around for the rest of the story as we continue an insightful conversation today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller. We had a fascinating conversation last time with Dr. Kathy about her book Eight Great Smarts. You probably fit a couple of them very dramatically, maybe one very specifically. And you’ll just need to go back and listen to that if you didn’t hear it. You can get the audio download from the website or better yet you can go to YouTube or the broadcast app. I mean, it’s got everything there. You just go and you can listen to thousands of programs, but Kathy’s will be there today and you can listen to her last time and today.
Jim Daly: Yeah, and Dr. Kathy Koch is always a favorite with our audience, John. She’s a speaker, author, researcher, podcaster, and she founded a great organization called Celebrate Kids. As we said, we’re covering some of the content in her book Eight Great Smarts. Stop by our website to get a copy. Dr. Kathy, welcome back.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here, Jim. Thank you for your support.
Jim Daly: I enjoy talking with you because you love kids. I love kids. I mean, kids are hilarious. They’re so—first of all, I don’t know if this is a smart or not, but kids are so blunt.
Dr. Kathy Koch: True.
Jim Daly: They’re just out there, right? You know, especially like things like different hair color, different skin color. They just say it.
Dr. Kathy Koch: They don’t have a filter like we do.
Jim Daly: Right. They haven’t developed that yet. I don’t know. Sometimes you gotta be ready as a parent, right?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Yes, this is true.
Jim Daly: And then you start saying things like, "We don’t say that to people." Did you ever have—that experience is so funny. Listen, we covered last time the word smart child, the picture smart child, the logic smart child. And it was good. I mean, really is good. And it’s one of those concepts that you can really latch into. It’s kind of like I mentioned last time, like Kevin Leman with the birth order book. It may not fit 100%, but there are—it’s like a spiritual kind of insight that somebody like you or Kevin Leman or Gary Chapman, you just hit on it and it’s right there and once you expose it to the rest of us we’re going, "Oh my goodness, she’s absolutely right."
Dr. Kathy Koch: I love that. I do think this is visible. You can see this and you can see it in yourself and you can see it in kids, which does make it really fun.
Jim Daly: How do we manage patience with children’s smarts when we don’t align with that smart? And I think that really does drive some parents a little to impatience.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh, totally understandable. It’s not about us, it’s about them. You know, you chose to have children or you chose to be a, you know, a teacher. So we love them well by letting them be who they are with boundaries, which are blessings when love is the goal. So just, you know, if you have a word smart kid, it doesn’t mean let them talk forever. There needs to be obedience or needs to be blessing, but we offer input and instruction so that they can be smart with their smarts, not that they would have the smarts diminished in them.
Jim Daly: You know, so often as parents we say to ourselves, "I wish I could have a do-over." You know, especially when the kids are young and we lack patience to do the right thing and, you know, we get angry, we have an outburst. Hopefully that’s it and there’s no physical issues or something like that. But in the normal parenting, how do we get ahead of that? I know so many people having children right now, it’s awesome. And I’d love to be able to have them tip into this discussion. But as a parent, how do you not have those regrets? How do you do it well the first time? I mean, what would you say to a 28-year-old young mom who’s got a new child and or maybe a three-year-old? And, you know, how do I not make those mistakes?
Dr. Kathy Koch: There’s a big part of me that wants to say you will make those mistakes. That’s fair. So it’s how you respond to them that really matters.
Jim Daly: What do you concentrate on as a new parent to make sure that you minimize those mistakes?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Raising the children you were given, not the children you wish you had. Oof. Making sure that if you have a picture smart child, you ask about her vivid imagination and you spend a lot of money on paper and watercolor. And be okay with that. And you be okay with that.
Jim Daly: What if they color the walls? That’s the problem.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Well then, so maybe you have—yeah, maybe you do let, "This is your wall. This is exactly. Yeah." If your child can handle the fact that, "This is your wall but this isn’t your wall," let them color on the wall. It’s just a wall. And you can paint it. And then you make the—but if it’s disobedience, then the child there’s a consequence, which would include that the child gets to repaint the wall. So there is a consequence for the choice. But we expect them to be smart with their smarts. We honor who God’s created them to be and we want to give them opportunities to be successful. So we do let them fingerpaint, but we do it outside and they’re wearing clothes that we don’t care if they get messy. And that we believe in our believing that God was smart to make our children this way and that it’s our privileged responsibility to nurture them up in the way that they’ve been created to be. To believe that your picture smart children will be, you know, art teachers or historians or great Bible scholars because they can see it come alive in their mind and they teach with such vivid language that everybody in their church is like, "That was the best message ever." Like, believe that God’s done something powerful for your kid and don’t get in the way. And if you’re in the way, apologize, ask to be forgiven, get yourself some help, know who you are, celebrate that, don’t lust after somebody else’s smarts. I could go on and on, but this is why I wrote the book, you know, to give people hope that they can get it right. Because it’s complicated, kids are complex.
Jim Daly: This is a little tongue-in-cheek, but it’s actually true. When our boys were young, I mean, they were out on the sidewalk painting with chalk. Guess who came to pay a visit? The HOA president. Oh my goodness! "We don’t allow chalk painting." I mean, my kids are like five and three. I’m going, "That’s wrong. Totally wrong." So anyway, but I’m sure a few people are going, "Yep, that’s my HOA too." But you know, roll with the punches, find a way to let your kids express themselves appropriately.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Right. And this is our chance for us to say, "No, we will obey our rulers." You know, let’s—that’s biblical. Yeah, that’s a great way to handle it. And then we find the backyard cement, you know, where they can’t be seen or we go to the park to swing on the swing set, but we take our bucket of sidewalk chalk and we leave really cool messages on the sidewalk: "God loves you." Oh, that’s good. "And have you noticed the daisies in the corner?" I mean, and then the next kids who come get blessed by that.
Jim Daly: For the new listeners today and viewers, let’s hit the eight just topically. Just let’s hit them and then we’ll pick up descriptions on the latter end.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Okay. And everybody has the capacity for all eight, I want to say that because God’s a generous God. So word smart people think with words. Logic smart people think with questions. Picture smart people think with their eyes, with visuals. Music smart people think with rhythms and melodies. Body smart people with movement and touch. Nature smart people with patterns. People smart people with other people. And self-smart people think deeply inside of themselves with reflection.
Jim Daly: This is going to be good. I’m looking forward to covering hopefully all of them if we can, but certainly most of them. Music smart, you mentioned that one. I am not music smart. Man, I am like tone-deaf. I don’t have it.
Dr. Kathy Koch: And okay, that’s okay. It’s okay to say that that’s number seven or eight for me if I were to make a list because to think that we have all eight to the max would be arrogant and that’s not appropriate. But those of us who do have music smart brain cells, we think with rhythms and melodies. We make music when we’re excited, so we whistle, toe-tap, beep-bop, and we might choose a church for the quality of the worship and we might spend a lot of our free time and our money on music. And these are kids who will go to the nursery when they’re two and they’ll find the glockenspiel. Those are kids asking for piano lessons when they’re six. Wow. So you can look at what do they enjoy in their free time and that’s going to show you maybe what they’re going to grow up and become.
Jim Daly: I remember Troy and I only went to his piano lesson once. And it was like eight weeks in. So the piano instructor says, "Let’s play the key of G. If you don’t know where it’s at, ask your parent." No! So I’m sitting on the bench with him and Troy’s looking at me like, "Where’s G?" I’m going, "Troy, I’m so sorry. I haven’t a clue." So I had to wave to the teacher and have her come over. I felt like stupid. I am so sorry again! She didn’t need to do that to you! Well, no, but I needed somebody to tell him where G was. Well, anyway. But I mean, that’s part of it. So I—you know, it’s hard for me again as a parent to think that my child could be music smart. It’s so out of my orbit, I’m not even sure how to relate to that.
Dr. Kathy Koch: I appreciate you bringing that up because there is research that suggests that the earlier the smarts are awakened, the greater the likelihood they’re a strength for a lifetime. So normally it would be that the parent would be modeling something that the child would want to become. So my parents were both music smart, so Dave and I developed music smart ability early on in our lives. In your case, you’re right, like you didn’t model that for your son, so it’s surprising to you that he—but I think if you don’t give a kid piano lessons, you won’t know that God created that kid to be music smart. Again, created in God’s image, not ours. It’s 100% wired into us by God and nurtured into children by God’s people. So God’s in charge of all of it, whether it’s through the DNA if you will, the creative intent God has when he makes us us and then the experiences. Like you could take a kid to a concert and they could be like, "I want to play the piano, Dad, that was the most amazing thing I’ve ever heard." And then he’s eight and you start piano lessons because he went to the symphony and he heard this guy on this big black massive piano go crazy nuts and a kid is like, "That was the most beautiful thing I’ve ever heard."
Jim Daly: Interesting, I read some brain research that said before six years old you develop tone ability, tonal ability and foreign language. If you’re exposed before like age six, you’ll pick up foreign languages quicker. Isn’t that interesting? Yeah, the brain is amazing. All right, body smart. Now you can make so much fun of this one, right? I mean, what is a body smart smart?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh come on. These are the movers, shakers. "Hey, look at my biceps!" Well you’re body smart, Jim, in that you talk with your hands. I do. And I’ve watched you lean back and lean forward. I talk with my hands. If I put my hands in my pocket, they’ll be there for like 10 seconds when I’m giving a speech. But body smart people think with movement and touch. We might be athletic, we might be in drama, we can make our whole body look angry even though we’re not. We can pour a glass of milk and not spill. We are the surgeons who will get the body back together right, the chiropractor who keeps the person’s body on the table. You know, the drummer versus the flute player.
Jim Daly: So like dexterity plays into it.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Dexterity would be part of it. And yeah, we turn every chair into rocking chairs. If you’re raising a body smart kid, buy him a clipboard and let him study his spelling words walking in the backyard. Let him swing on the swing set when he’s memorizing a poem and that body smartness if you will is going to enhance the ability to learn. It seems foreign to us because it might not work for us, but again, it might be the kid that you were given.
Jim Daly: You know, in that context, there’s been a lot of many, many articles talking about over-prescription on ADHD, ADD. I would think this plays into that. Body smart people can be very active and irritating, if I could say it that way. So parents from what I understand from the literature a lot of parents are over-prescribing with their physicians things to control body expression. How do you feel about that?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Can I be brave here? I think in many cases we are medicating out of children the greatest channel God’s given them through which they can embrace life. What a beautiful way to look at that. Thank you. But again it requires patience on the parent’s part. And you know, the proper diagnosis, the proper pediatrician, the proper exam of food and food dyes and sleep patterns and all kinds of things. If children have been gifted by God to be body smart, you’ll know it early on, and they need as everyone else does, we talked about it in the last episode, self-control, self-respect, and respect for others. I teach children that even if you’re the most body smart kid in the class, you’re not allowed to move if it makes it hard for the teacher to teach and hard for the other students to learn. You can choose to control yourself. So I write about this in the book, a child who drums their fingers on the table, which is a combination of maybe music smart and body smart, and they like it, it actually calms them down, it might give them energy, but it’s bothering everybody else. You can teach that child to take their fingers and do it on their thigh under the desk. And I’ll say to kids, it’s not as satisfying because it doesn’t make noise, but it’s not about you being happy all the time. It’s about you learning to live in community and you need to do that. And by the way guys, learning to live in community starts in the family. So it’s not a question—like for our listeners—it’s not a question of "how do I get that to stop? Stop it, stop it, stop it!" It’s "how do I redirect all that energy to something less offensive?" And that’s doable. But again, it takes instruction, not punishment. And it takes compassion and empathy and love and a choice.
Jim Daly: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.
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Jim Daly: Dr. Kathy, what does it look like to be nature smart? This one I’m a little lost on as well.
Dr. Kathy Koch: These kids think with patterns, and so do the adults. They know that it’s not a blue jay, it’s a bluebird because they remember where the blue goes on the body or the wing of the bird. Huh. They might know the names of the clouds. You know, I travel every week on an airplane, you’d think I’d know the names of the clouds, I don’t. I’m not terribly nature smart although I’m word smart, my vocabulary for nature is weaker. Nature smart kids would rather be outdoors than indoors, they’ll do better in biology than they will in chemistry. They’ll do better in earth science than they will in physics. They want to sit outside at a restaurant, they love to get dirty, they dig in the dirt, and they’ll run the pet store at the mall and they’ll be dog walkers when they’re 14 earning money for church camp in the summer.
Jim Daly: Yeah, I hadn’t even thought about it in terms of those patterns and watching snowflakes or something, right?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Exactly. Yeah, the nature smart kid looks out the window and is distracted by that and talks to the dog more than they talk to the mom.
Jim Daly: What are some ways then, Dr. Kathy, that we can foster that child who just longs to be outdoors and maybe my lifestyle right now and ours is a family doesn’t allow for so much time outdoors?
Dr. Kathy Koch: I appreciate that question. Maybe we’re living in an apartment and it’s not safe to be out at a park. But you can go to the park as a family, you can walk through a botanical garden for free in most cities. You can go to a garden shop and buy a tulip or a geranium and plant it and it’s on the windowsill of your child’s bedroom. And you could ask for a zoo membership for Christmas rather than another toy that a week later they’ll forget they have in the closet. So and I think again, we can do this. I love your question, John, because we’re born with the capacity for all eight, but they do have to be awakened and it’s the activities and the games and the books and the conversations that will do that.
Jim Daly: Yeah, my wife is definitely a nature smart person. I like the outdoors, but we spent so many summers camping to the point where at one point one of our daughters said, "Do we have to do this again? I’m so tired of camping." And I think what I hear you saying is give them opportunities and you’ll find out.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Yes. Do they gravitate toward that or not? If you—if we never give them the opportunity for camping or piano lessons, we won’t know and they won’t know where their gifts might lie.
Jim Daly: This idea of people smart, that’s intriguing to me. I would assume that would be things like they can read a room pretty quickly, they know the people, they see behind the eyes of that person. But children actually have that capacity?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh yes sir. And this—I think this is the most important smart because it’s how they know who is safe for them. They can walk into a room and go, "I’m going to sit there." Or they go, "I’m going to avoid that person." Interesting. And these are the kids who, you know, your sons when they were young, they walked up to you and they wanted you to say yes but you had no written all over your face so they turned away. And then you’re like, "Can I help you?" and the kid is like, "No." And you’re like, "I have time now," and the kid is like, "I don’t care," you know, because I wanted a yes. So it’s a really, really important skill. It’s been awakened later because of the pandemic and masking and eyes down on devices and we don’t ask our kids to look up and say please and thank you.
Jim Daly: Let’s go a little slower on that because this is critical. I mean, what you’re saying is that the years of COVID muted that ability to develop people smarts.
Dr. Kathy Koch: It’s a great verb that you use. Right. It’s never too late, but we have to understand that we have children from a certain age group, you know, 5 to 10 years old now maybe, that were raised in that and we need to help them. And we need to get their eyes off of their devices so they can look up and go, "Oh that person’s happy, that person’s sad, that person’s mad." Otherwise, again, they won’t know who’s for them. And the other thing that’s so powerful about being people smart and you two gentlemen are so good at this, it is interacting with people to develop truth. It’s collaborating, networking. These are kids who can debate without arguing. They can persuade and convince without bullying. This is a very, very important skill. We want and we want our kids to be able to, as an example, talk about Jesus Christ without making people mad. And that’s people smart. I would teach it early and I would teach it often.
Jim Daly: How do you—and I want to make sure we hear this clearly—in teaching a people smart child not to manipulate? Because you kind of put the dark end of this as their ability to manipulate is quite—quite high versus the ability to use their people smart for good. Again, just talk about it in that context and then for the parent who’s now troubled that they can outsmart the parent.
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh definitely. That’s the unfortunate. Yeah, but speak to that whole thing. All of the eight have a dark side, which I do write about in the book. Yeah, people smart kids can manipulate. I’ve asked children and young adults, "How many of you can get your mom to say yes when she should have said no?" All the hands go up! At least 80% and then they laugh. And then I say, "Don’t ever be proud again of doing something you shouldn’t have done that you can do." And I can do that as the outside stranger, you know, but so can the mom. The mom can say, now that they’re listening to this broadcast, the mom and the dad can say, "Hey, we’re going to listen to this together. I want you to hear from the expert. And we’re going to train you to use your ability for good and not evil. So you can be full of grace more readily than somebody else but we’re not going to let you manipulate anymore." So this is where the mom stands up for herself and has respect and says to the child, "Uh-uh, we’re not going there. I said no. Already answered. Go to bed." And I’m not again, that’s a whole 'nother episode, but we can do that and we can make sure that our kids know that you have a talent and a gift that God’s chosen for you, praise God. Don’t use it the way you’re using it.
Jim Daly: Okay, last! We did get through these and yes, self-smart, which I do want to just pause on this one because it’s really intriguing to me. I think it’s a little less clear, the self-smart one. What does that world look like for the self-smart child?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Although it’s last, it’s not least important. Like just something has to be last, right? So self-smart people think deeply inside of themselves. They’ve never heard an easy question. Even "what do you want for lunch?" "Well I saw that Mom has ham in there but I had it yesterday. I don’t know. I wonder what we’re having for dinner? That might help me decide." I’m serious! Every question can require a complex analysis and it needs to feel right. So they need patience and they—you know what they tell me, Jim? They tell me they’re slow. These are the children who tell me they’re stupid.
Jim Daly: Oh, interesting. But they’re thinking deeply.
Dr. Kathy Koch: It’s quite opposite. Exactly. Exactly. And it’s so interesting. They need quiet, peace, privacy, and space. And many of them tell me, "But I share a bedroom. And my dad looks under the mattress. And my mom empties the backpack." I’m like, "They should. You’re a kid," you know. But let them go out on the porch swing and think something through. If you do family devotions, start it out and share the message for the night and share your worship song and pray and then give them all a question and let everybody in the family separate for four minutes. You can go to wherever you want as long as you are within the sound of the bell and when the bell rings come back. Everybody’ll benefit from that but the self-smart kids are like, "Oh cool. Cause now they can think without you staring at them while they’re thinking," which drives them absolutely nuts. So peace, quiet, privacy, space to encourage them to know that you’re not slow, you’re a deep thinker. It’ll change them. And understand the thing that’s hard, Jim, a lot of self-smart people, their joy is knowing and so they’re not likely to share with the church, the community, the school, or the mom and dad what they know, which is sad because they tend to know very, very good things. And we must encourage them to share. Hope that makes sense.
Jim Daly: It does, it does. I’m just thinking about that because I think I have one who is that in terms of the bent. I mean, like you said, you’re all of this but what sprouts out as a tendency or a more predictable pattern, right? I’m thinking of Lee Strobel, who we had on the broadcast, the author of Case for Christ. He encouraged me to ask the boys a question and the listeners to ask their teen 20-somethings a question. And it was, "If Jesus had to answer a question immediately, what question would you ask him?" So it does a lot the way you frame that. It’s an immediacy thing. It kind of boils it down to what is the question you would ask God, right? And so I was having lunch with Trent and Troy and I asked this. And it’s so funny because their bents came out. Trent the biochemistry guy and I said it to him and Trent says, "Give me 20 minutes and I’ll have an answer." I mean, I’m talking like on the mark at 20 minutes. He goes, "Okay, I’ve got my answer." "Okay, what is it?" And he goes, "I’d like to know what element are we missing that’s right in front of us that God used to create the universe?" And I went, "Wow, okay, that’s good." And Troy immediately said, "I’d ask him why we suffer." And this is my scientist and my philosopher theologian. You know, I would encourage parents to do that because I think it fits here, Kathy, with your information. I think it gives you an insight into where your kids are and, you know, at age-appropriate levels, but I think it’s wonderful and starts moving you in that direction. Let me ask you this right at the end here. It’s been wonderful as always to have you on. Always good energy and, you know, I hope the parents listening are benefiting and going, "Aha! Oh, writing a note on your phone. Gotta talk to my husband tonight about that one." But right at the end, we spent the last two days exploring the different ways we’re smart, and this applies to us too as parents. Know thyself, right? What are some things you hope our audience takes away from this conversation?
Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh, I appreciate that. Additional belief that God has been good to them, to make them how he’s made them, and that their children were strategically and intentionally created to be who they are for his glory and for this family. And we need to walk in that reality. I hope that there are adults who are realizing maybe they’ve not stretched themselves in ways that they could. I know of people who hear me speak and go back to college because they realize that they can do something that they’ve always wanted to do but thought they couldn’t do. Just a little encouragement. Wow! Because if you’re not terribly word and logic, you don’t think you’re designed for school. But you absolutely are. Plus you do have word and logic, you just have to choose to go there. So maybe we’ve encouraged people to not look down on themselves but to realize that they’re smart too. Because you know what guys? Smart is a power word. It’s a good word. When we think we’re smart, we study. If you don’t think you’re smart, you don’t bother studying because you don’t think it’ll help. So it’s just fascinating. So I pray for very, very strong encouragement and I pray that there’ll be practical conversations that people will choose to have as you’ve directed us beautifully to have.
Jim Daly: Yeah, and it’s such an amazing thing that God invites us in to be part of the Gospel. We have to be there, we’re that part of the ingredient and then the Holy Spirit comes with his ingredient and the Lord moves, you know. But it takes that care of an adult or a person in someone’s life to make a difference. Well, Dr. Kathy, this has been good. So good. Always good wisdom and insights from you. And your wonderful book Eight Great Smarts: Discover and Nurture Your Child’s Intelligences. Not one, but some part of all eight. Right. And you can get a copy of this great book. Be in ministry with us. Man, mend a marriage, help a parent do a better job, save a baby’s life. That happens each and every day here at Focus and we can make it fun. You get a great resource. If you do that monthly that helps us tremendously, a one-time gift as well. But we’ll send you Kathy’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry and helping others. It really is a resource that will revolutionize your approach to identity and intelligence. It’s that good. And we’re so thankful for friends like you who support the ministry. Our research shows that over the last 12 months, our joint efforts together have helped more than 80,000 parents work through a significant crisis in their parenting. That’s a huge impact for families, right? 80,000 people just in the past year helping them through that marital crisis.
John Fuller: Yeah, that’s generational impact and that’s all because of folks who come alongside and support us, pray for this ministry. And that’s why we’re inviting you today to donate generously. Our number’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or donate and get Dr. Kathy’s book Eight Great Smarts when you stop by focusonthefamily.com/weekend. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.